SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello, my fellow Dreades, and welcome to the Dread Alert Podcast. I'm Vince, and today we're joined by a very special guest. Today, I'm joined by Paul Tremblay. Paul has won the Brahm Stoker, British Fantasy, and Massachusetts Book Awards, and is the author of Survivor Song, The Cabin at the End of the World, Disappearance at Devil's Rock, A Headful of Ghosts, among many others, including crime novels and short story collections. His essays and short fiction have appeared in the Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Entertainment Weekly Online, and numerous Year's Best Anthologies. Paul has been very generous with his time, and we are really excited to have him here on the podcast. Not only because I'm interviewing him, but because I'm also a giant fan of his work. Paul, thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much, Vince. Very kind. Happy to be here. So we're going to be talking about your next book, which comes out on July 22nd from Quill Tree Books and HarperCollins, and just a quick thank you to them and to Ned Galley for the advanced copy. This book's called Another, and unlike some of your other work, it's a middle grade and young adult novel. Is that correct? Yeah, uh, that is correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I don't have an expansive answer for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

What inspired you to tackle middle grade and young adult work? Um, so I've been uh for my whole writing life, I've been also like a high school math teacher. Um and then when the movie Knock at the Cabin was being made, uh, that gave me the opportunity to take a year sabbatical from school. Uh so that was the year of the academic year of 22, 23. Um, so what ended up happening was that I finished my adult novel horror movie way, you know, like four months before my deadline, which was great. And so I was like, oh, you know, what am I gonna do now? And I I happen to have, I don't know, just like hopefully those things that happen to most writers, you just get like this weird random sort of scene or imagery in your head, and which was sort of the became the main component of another anyway. But the really quickly, the the scene that I just sort of imagined or stumbled upon was this old dude with a burlap sack shows up at a lonely boy's house and says, Hey, I've got a friend for you. And when he opens the sack, inside is this like clay mannequin sort of boy with no real facial expressions, just like um, you know, indentations and maybe a nose ridge, but the the boy, you know, the clay boy could move and and sculpt a smile on his face. So I was like, Oh, that's weird. I should do something with that. Um, and it's like, oh, I'm gonna write it from the point of view of the 12-year-old. So maybe this is middle grade. Um, I guess the last thing I would say, sorry, this is really rambly, but maybe like a year or two before, uh, a good friend and writer, Mallory O'Mara, uh said, Hey, you have to read Kenneth Opple's The Nest. It's amazing, it's really scary. Uh, I don't know, I'm sure like you get tons of book recommendations, but she went so as far as to buy me a copy and mail it to me. It's like, oh, I guess I better read it. So for sure, like when I read that book, I was like, oh, I didn't know, like, this is really beautifully written and scary. I didn't know like you could do stuff like this with middle grade. So, I mean, that was also sort of kicking around the back of my head. Um, yeah. So I had the time off, the weird scene, and then I I I wrote another.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

And I want to say, this is not light work here. It's not pandering to middle grade. It's written concisely and clearly, but it's also pretty creepy as well. I I don't think you're pulling any punches with this novel. Well, thank you, Vince.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

I appreciate it. Sure. I mean, I think, you know, the secret, well, I don't know. The way I it's just not a secret. The way I approach my writing is like, you know, trying not to talk down to people, like assume your readers are are smart no matter what their age is. Now I think most readers sort of appreciate both like the honesty, like the emotional honesty of it all. You know, so we'll we'll see how it goes with kids when they read this. I mean, there is no violence. Uh yeah, but uh, you know, I think it's pretty creepy, but I don't know, I'm a terrible judge of what's creepy.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, it seems like you have a ton of experience because you teach middle and high school, so the authenticity feels like it's there. Did you pull any of that from your experience in the classroom?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, in a weird way, like such a you know, strange beginning, you know, as I said, like the very sort of phantasmagoric image of that kid coming out of the the clay boy coming out of the sack. Uh it very quickly, once I had to figure out, hey, who is who is Casey? Why would why was he so lonely and isolated, and why would he allow this to happen? Not allow it to happen, but why would he be so desperate for friendship that he would try to you know become friends with the weird clay thing? Um yeah, and I quickly, pretty quickly discovered that oh, I needed to write about sort of the the two years of teaching in the peeth in the teeth of the pandemic. Um now, I hopefully, you know, the book is not very didactic about it. I mean, I kind of hope it works as like a little bit of a metaphor. Um, I mean, the pandemic's mentioned, but you know, 95% of the book takes place in Casey's house during a school vacation week. So I I really don't hit you over the head with with pandemic stuff. But yeah, no, you know, things from like, you know, cyberbullying to, you know, uh remote learning and hybrid learning, you know, just dealing with with kids both in my family and at school that age. Yeah, that certainly all informed the book.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, and I think very, very well. There's a very clear theme, and I want to dive into themes a little bit later in this interview because I think there are a number of extremely interesting themes that this book raises and questions that this book raises that I want to dive into. But I was a big fan of Goosebumps and scary stories to tell in the dark and shows like Are You Afraid of the Dark. As an educator, how important is it that kids are exposed to horror and scary stories when they're in middle and early high school?

SPEAKER_01 5:34

That's a great question. I don't know if I've ever thought of it in those terms that it's important to be exposed to it. I mean, I do think it is in some ways. I mean, there's I I mean, I get it as a parent, like there's that line where you're trying to protect your kids from the horrors of the world, but at some point, like if you're always protecting them, it's just gonna be like this horrible, you know, shock. Uh, you know, so what's the right age? I mean, honestly, it's it's kid, it's a kid by or you know, person by person basis, honestly. Um, you know, and especially now in the world that we live in, you you're your your kids are gonna be exposed to pretty awful things, you know, you know, no matter what you do. Like if you know, if they have access to a phone or the internet or um yeah, they're gonna see stuff. They're gonna hear stuff from other kids. I mean, that's how we learned about it. You know, we didn't have the internet, but there are always older kids hanging around telling us things that we probably shouldn't have been told, or or we see something on TV, you know, for me that was, you know, as a child of the cable television revolution. That was sort of the case for me. Um but yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's you know, if your kid's a reader and he's interested in it, I mean, what a what better way to be exposed to s some of those sort of emotions and feelings than, you know, with the safety of a book, the safety and hope of a book.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned hope because I find this to be one of the more hopeful pieces, at least of the ones that I've read of yours. And I wondered if that was where the story led you or if that was more intentional for the audience.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Uh, probably a little bit of both. I mean, well, uh when I started writing the book, I wasn't sure if it was middle grade, but you know, when I got pretty far into it, I thought I hoped it would be. I mean, based on, you know, the the protagonist. So yeah, you know, for my adult readers, like, yeah, the you know, the kid doesn't die at the end, uh, nor does the world blow up or anything like that. Um, but also it was very story specific that wouldn't have worked for the story. Um yeah, I don't know. Uh is it any more hopeful, I guess. I don't know. Like I I just find that the actual act of of writing and having someone read, and as a reader, you know, just even if I'm reading or watching a terribly grim movie, I just find that act hopeful. Like that that communication between reader and uh reader and writer or or movie watcher and filmmaker, I mean to me that's innately hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I tend to lean towards the bleak in my own personal horror watching habits. I tend to gravitate towards the bleak, and I tend to gravitate towards the ambiguous, which is something I think you do really well with your writing. I think of A Headful of Ghosts and I think of Horror Movie. And if you haven't read Headful of Ghosts and Horror Movie, those are two of my favorites from Paul. And I was left wrestling with both of those books for days after I finished reading them, not because of a lack of clarity, but because of well-structured ambiguity. And I find this story to be much more clear. And I was wondering if that was more for the reader as well. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Um, you know, I I think in some ways, like young readers could probably handle ambiguity better than adults can, or at least, you know, not have the same tantrum some adult readers have. Um, you know, I say that as a joke, but I'm not joking. You know, I think if you think back to when you were, you know, when you were in middle school or or teens, like uh or early teen, like life felt like ambiguity to me. Like, you know, you know, I always, you know, as I'm losing like actual memories as I'm getting older and older, I still maybe it's because I've been teaching for so long, I still feel like I have some sort of lifeline to that emotional life of a of a young person, especially when as a young person that that weird combination of dread and excitement for the future, this big scary thing. Um, you know, it's still there as an adult, but it's slightly different. Um, you know, it's slightly different, sort of like uh dread and fear and excitement, maybe less excitement. I don't want to get too bummery.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

No, I think you're right. I think the responsibility of it as an adult makes it less exciting, the responsibility of managing life through ambiguity. It becomes more scary for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Um, yeah. So anyway, so if I'm gonna use ambiguity, I I really try to be careful to not have it be a gimmick. Like I don't want it to be like a trick, you know. I want it to be this is at least the way, this is the best way that I think the story should be told. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I at least have to convince myself, you know, the ambiguity has to be part and parcel of a theme. If the book is scary at all, it's scary precisely because of the ambiguity. So yeah, this book didn't, the story didn't call for ambiguity, so I wasn't gonna like jam it in there.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. And I think it's more overtly supernatural than some of the other more ambiguous books, which I found refreshing. Frankly, I think it lent itself to some really interesting themes, and some of those themes that jumped out for me were, like you mentioned before, cyberbullying, but also looking at moral as a character, and if you can twist that into bullying, sometimes the victimization that bullies are going through themselves. And I also love the idea of the snake tattoo and tying it in with maybe shedding of skin later in the novel without giving too many spoilers. And it's a hopeful story in the sense that we become who we are through that adversity. And one of the highlights I made when I was reading it is that your parents can't always protect you and how empowering Casey found that. So I guess what would you hope an adult reader or a kid reader, because I think the message applies even with me, uh, with content creation, with coming into my own, I think all of these apply across the board. What would you hope an audience would think, feel, or perhaps do after completing the book?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Oh, wow, that's I mean it's a really good question, but in some ways that can possible answer. Like uh only because, like, you know, we're talking about the book and you've asked like, you know, super great questions. I'm just worried that my answers are gonna be stupid because you know, for you know, in this book it took about six months. Usually my adults take like a year. It's like for me, the best way to say what I was trying to say is the book. I mean, to me, that's why I read is you know, uh, you know, a book communicates a story communicates like emotions that you can't really communicate otherwise, or maybe or not communicate as well. Uh, you know, so with that sort of caveat out of the way, I don't know. I mean, it was kind of a fun surprise that the book ended up being such like hopefully a celebration of art, human-created art, in some ways, and how fundamental that is to both the creator and hopefully, you know, the people that you know get to see or experience the art as well. Um, you know, as I'm sitting here, I don't know if I don't know which if any of this is gonna be online or video-wise, but I'm wearing uh oh yeah. No, no, that's that's fantastic. Yeah, for the listeners, I'm wearing a fuck AI t-shirt that was drawn by a comic book artist, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, and we wholeheartedly agree with that here. Um, I think there's something that's just definitely tied to the human spirit about art, whether you're creating art or promoting artists like we do here. And I definitely think you hit the nail on the head. This novel is a love letter to art in a lot of ways. It's you know, I found myself going, he found his voice, he found his heart, and he found them literally through art. And I thought that was just so cleverly done.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Well, thank you. Yeah, I would say really briefly, you know, thanks to to my own two children who are very artsy kids. Um, yeah, my my daughter's a visual artist, just like you know, similar to Casey. My my son is a musician. So yeah, no, I mean just seeing them uh, you know, go through what they go through, but you know, mostly good ways, uh, you know, it's inspiring to see, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

We have a sister channel and it's run by our co-host Sarah, and we have a toddler. And Sarah was very interested in what we could expose our toddler to, and she's done a great deal of research, finding content that's spookier for kids from birth to age 17. And Sarah had three specific questions she wanted to ask that will maybe play on her channel in short form, but will err on this podcast. She says, another is the type of book I would have devoured when I was younger. What books did you like to read when you were young? Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Uh um I'm honored that uh it worked for her. And uh man, when we get to this question, I'm always somewhat embarrassed because as a kid I wasn't a huge reader. Like I really didn't fall in love with reading until uh my early 20s. Um, however, you know, I was always like the goody two-shoes in school. So I would always read the books that are assigned to me. Um so nothing super scary, but I do remember my mother reminding me like how much I enjoyed like the Encyclopedia Brown stuff. This is, you know, so in the 80s. Uh certainly read my fair share of uh choose your own adventure stories as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

I love choose your own adventure novels. Those were always a great time. Uh Sarah asks, there are plenty of creepy scenes in the book. Is there one particular scene that stands out without spoiling the book too much? I know we've talked about one of those scenes, the genesis of the book, but is there anything else that strikes you as one of your favorites?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Oh, that's a good question. It's funny because I usually say for my adult books, there's always like one or two scenes that I treat as like the carrot at the end of a stick. Like, oh, I can't wait to write the scene. Um, and I don't know if another had that. Like, I mean, which was cool because it was a totally different writing experience. Um, I mean, I obviously I was interested in writing like the scene I described that happened so early in the book. Usually the carrot at the end of the stick scene is more later towards the end. Um, I think maybe like one of the one of the last like sleepover night scenes where it really gets uh super creepy or you know, super horror y pyrotechnically, without you know, there's no actually explosions or anything. I don't know why I said pyrotechnically. Yeah. Uh I don't know. And maybe actually the one thing like I wasn't looking forward to it, but I was really sort of surprised by uh Morrill's character, like because I wasn't anticipating sort of what he was going through, became something that I would really explore as opposed to him just being a quote unquote villain kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, without spoiling too much and without being too punny, I think Morr develops nicely along the course of this novel. And I I was I was torn, I was of two minds about him. By the end of it, he really grew on me. Um and the scene you're mentioning, it's very spider-webby and very much so stands out as a high point in the book for sure. We have one more question from Sarah. It's did you find your writing process different from this book, considering it was meant for a young audience? We've touched on this a bit, but if there's anything else you'd like to elaborate on.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Um, I mean the short versions, no, not really. Uh like I I really did not approach the writing any different than I would have, with the exception of, you know, there's no swearing. Um I tried to slip in one, but the editor's like, uh, you probably should take it out. It's like that's fine. Um but no, I mean, I, you know, sat at the same spot. Like I took notes like I normally do. Uh I didn't pre-plot this one out, but but that's sort of been the way I've been going for the last like three or four books. Normally, like my thing is I'm gonna write it and let other people figure out what to do with it. You know, at some point I did think I thought this could be a a middle grade or or younger reader book, but you know, I wasn't sure. And if and if it wasn't, we were gonna publish it as an adult level. I was like, fine, you know, just you know, give it to my agent and publisher and let them figure it out. You know, which is sort of a privileged thing to say, but I'm super lucky to have the team and I have.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah, and I and I think that's the uncompromising artist point of view. Yeah, you know, you do the work as the work. And again, it speaks to the recommendation we're making on the channel, which is you know, if you're an adult reader or if you have kids in this age range, it would be a lovely book to read alongside them. And I think you'd get a lot out of it. I found it very empowering. And uh, it's a recommendation that I stand by, that it can be for either age group, the kids and the kids at heart. I think so, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

I mean, I don't know if this happens to you, but like, especially people my age, I won't age you. But like, you know, Gen Xers, especially like you hear them talk about all the time, what was their introduction to horror was usually reading Stephen King at an absurdly young age when they shouldn't have been. Um, I mean, so I mean, that part of it was was definitely in the back of my head, not that I was writing something inappropriate for kids, but it's like, oh no, like eight to twelve year olds, middle schoolers, they can handle, you know, it depends on the kid. You know, it's a kid by kid, you know, person by person basis, you know. They'll they'll know if they can handle it or not, I think, especially when it comes to a book. I mean, it's a little bit different when it's a more visceral, instant video sort of format. I mean, that's a little bit different. But if it's a book, I mean you have the you have the time and the sort of control, you can kind of control the story in your own head too, which I think is part of the fun of being like a new reader or a young reader, too, I think.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

So I have a couple more questions for you. Some we ask all our guests, some just for you. But um, in honor of another, what is your favorite doppelganger story? Book, movie, TV, show, what's your favorite doppelganger story?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Oh no. Uh I guess, oh no, I'm so bad at thinking on the spot like that. Um, oh, uh I guess if it Oh, I I'm so stupid. Yes, one of my all-time favorite movies, Lake Mungo, uh, Australian film.

unknown 18:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I think that definitely qualifies as a doppelganger movie.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Absolutely, absolutely. We just covered Late Night with the Devil on the podcast, and when this airs, it'll be a few weeks ago that we covered it. But as of the time of this recording, it was just this week that we released it. And so I'm in sort of an Australian horror headspace. I really love Lake Mungo. It's interesting to me that they have sort of a cultural aversion to horror whenever they're producing such good horror movies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Uh it's been it's been really cool to see just in the past 10 years, like that movie just continue to build an audience and you know, and have champions. I know like Mike Flanagan has talked about the movie quite a bit, and I got to, you know, it was a supreme honor. Uh, there's an outfit in Australia who are doing like a big fancy sort of uh Blu-ray DVD with the making of and commentary, you know, and they asked me on uh to talk about the movie, which was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

You name dropped Buffy the Vampire Slayer as well, and I was excited to see that the episode Doppelgangland. And um Sarah's doing a Buffy rewatch on her channel, and I am a diehard Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan. So when I read that, I was like, as if I didn't know it already, but I was like, this dude is the real deal.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Thank you. But I have to admit, I have never watched Buffy. I mean, so that clearly came from like when I was researching Doppelgangers, like Casey was. Uh yeah, I don't know why. It's I mean, I don't know. I mean, everyone's busy, you know, so it this feels like a lame excuse, but also between teaching and writing and being a parent and you know, trying to read all the books that I can, like TV is sort of the thing that not doesn't fall by the wayside, but I don't get to watch as much as I would want to watch.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I've watched significantly less TV since we started this channel. When you're busy with a thousand other things, long form storytelling can definitely fall by the wayside. So no shame there. Um here's the next question we ask everybody who comes on the show. What is your favorite all-time horror movie? You could pick a few. You don't have to pick just one. That's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Well, I mean, I guess my my top three, you've already mentioned one. Like Lake Mongo is usually the deeper cut. Uh, I think that the top two are probably, you know, the favorite movies of very many people, but Jaws, you know, with its 50th anniversary of the summer is definitely one of them. It's probably the movie I've watched the most, even though I still cover my eyes when Quint gets attacked. Uh because it so scarred me when I saw it when I was 10. Um, and the thing. Um also recently had an anniversary. Yes, right. Uh, and I've probably seen that the second most of all time. But man, the thing is, I mean, both those movies are such just such great movies. I think even like non-horror fans would enjoy it. You know, if I can use my son as a as a you know, a test subject, because he's not a huge horror guy. But you know, he loves the thing, Jaws.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

I'll throw the thing in there as a doppelganger movie as well. Hmm, you're right. It could absolutely that's fantastic. We're on brand today. Um, my standard question to wrap up the interview is what are you working on next? I know you had some exciting news. I don't know how much you can tell us, but um if you want to share uh what you're up to next.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, thank you. Well, well, first, I mean, before I forget, uh you mentioned a horror movie and the paperback is coming out August 5th. Um, and they they've made it like a really beautiful physical object. You know, it's got like some really cool sprayed edges with like film on the side, and you know, which they I don't know if they normally do for paperback. So I'm excited about that. Um, but yeah, so you're referencing uh we just sort of announced that I signed a new three-book deal with William Morrow. And so the book that'll be coming out hopefully next summer uh is called Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. Um, it sort of does riff on horror and science fiction, a little bit of AI. I guess the the main conceit is that um, although a lot of this happens off screen, but there's a guy who's sort of like my age, works for unnamed tech giant. Um, and when he's on campus, he has a massive stroke. He doesn't die, but he's like in a vegetative state in the tech company because apparently the dude signed his body away to them, like, yes, you can do what you want with me if something were to happen. Um, put AI nanotechnology into his brain, um, so that he can be remote controlled, almost like in a video game. Uh, and they hired this young 24-year-old woman to sort of basically weekend at Bernie him across the country. Uh, so I hope a big chunk of the book is actually kind of funny. Um, so like from her point of view, it's her controlling, you know, the dude. Uh, but the other half of the book is this man, of course, uh has some sort of consciousness and he's basically going through hell. Uh a vivid, phantasmagorical hell as he's being transported. And so the two two sort of narratives. I'm so bad at the pitch. But yeah, so that the book sort of goes back and forth between those two narratives and into a suitably horrific adult trembly ending.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Sign me up. This sounds fantastic. And the Philip K. Dick reference is not lost on me. For those of you interested in Blade Runner, the novel it's based on is called Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Correct? Correct. Yep. Yeah, it it's a great book. Um, and definitely check out Horror Movie if you don't already have the hardcover with the red edging around it. Um, the paperback with the red edges sounds fantastic. You won't be disappointed. I stand by this book so hard. Thank you. Now we know what you're working on next, but I also know you have a pretty active mailing list. So where can people find you if they want to know what you're working on and what to keep their eyes peeled for?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Sure. I'm on Blue Sky and uh Instagram. Those are the two things I check now. Uh I don't check the Twitter anymore since you know who took over. Um, but uh it's at Paul GTremblay, the handle for uh for both, I think. Um and I have a newsletter if you go to my website, paultrembly.net. It's free. It's usually once a month, sometimes longer.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Uh so it's not too obnoxious. Paul, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be here with us today. Hopefully, you all get to check out the book when it's released on July 22nd and keep your eyes out for the next one. Thanks again, Paul. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Thank you so much, Vince. I appreciate it.