SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello, my fellow Dreadites. We are joined today by Clay McLeod Chapman, one of my favorite horror authors. I am so excited to have Clay with us on the show today. Clay McLeod Chapman writes novels, comic books, and children's books. He also writes for film and TV and is the author of many adult horror novels. Some of my personal favorites include What Kind of Mother, Wake Up and Open Your Eyes. We reviewed that earlier this year. You have to check that out. Whisper Down the Lane is an incredible, mind-bending, uh expectation-shifting novel. And now Shiny Happy People, which is his YA debut. Clay, thank you so much for being with us. I rattled off a number of books there, and I am not lying when I say the ones that you highlight in your bio are some of my absolute favorites that you've written.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

That's wild. It's just so funny to hear, you know, someone kind of like bounce your bio back at you, and you're just like, man, what a what a world. What a world we live in. Um I can't even imagine.

unknown 1:05

Oh God.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

It it's, I don't know. I I have no greater point other than just like, I'm sitting here and I'm just like, damn.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah. You're pretty prolific. You've written a lot of stuff. Um I first came across you actually uh in like face-to-face-ish, um, during one of your Fango reads, you wrote a short story for Fangoria.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

And um we were new subscribers and we're like, well, we gotta get on that. Uh so my wife and I. Yeah. It was the first time I heard you read, but I also heard you read on uh Larry Fezenden's show. I think you did a a reading or two for Larry. Oh, wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah. Was that the tales from Beyond the Pale? They're ready to shoot. Oh my god. Deep cut. That's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I you're such a uh charismatic and dynamic reader. I was like, I I wonder if Clay would grace us with his presence on this show.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

In a in a friggin' heartbeat.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, but thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Well, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Um, so tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you get started as a writer?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Oof, uh, you know, it's it's funny. I I mean, like, my origin story is one of those goofy larks where, like, I mean, I was like a terrible student, like window, my attention just would always go out at, like, I was just constantly in a state of not being present, and whatever was happening in the front of the classroom just could not hold my attention. And my grades 100% absolutely showed it, and I was failing at a very early age. And uh it took my sixth grade English teacher to kind of pull me aside one day and say, Hey, you're failing my class, you're gonna be repeating the sixth grade next year if you don't do something. And um, she struck a deal with me and she uh she said, if you like enter this writing competition, like write a story, and uh we'll I'll I'll give you some extra credit and we'll bump that grade up. And I I had never thought about it, never it like writing was not something that kind of enter, like entered into my purview. Um, I love to read, but uh writing was just not not there yet for me. Uh but I got that extra credit and I passed and I moved on to the seventh grade. Uh, and then like a month later, I get this letter in the mail saying, Congratulations, you've won this contest. And it it was the first time to have something that I had created that someone else responded to in any positive way. And I was just like, oh wow, this is uh gratification feels good. And uh I kept entering that contest year after year after year until finally they cut me off. Um still failed every class I could. Um, but like class was theoretically in session for me uh in these contests, these competitions of just like writing plays or short stories or you know, and that was, I mean, that was 12, 12 years old. And it just like, I mean, I never stopped. Like, that is all I've ever done with myself for 3,000 years now.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's fantastic. I was a similar student, so I absolutely related that. It wasn't until I found performing that that unlocked academics for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Oh my god. Um was it one of those things where you like you were this square peg and everybody tried to put you in a circular hole? And then it was when you say performance, was it just like you the theater?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, yeah. We ran a theater company for a long time. And uh while I'm not the strongest writer, um, I pride myself on saying I've done every job at that company, including a one-act play. Uh, but yeah, it's it's wild how creative people, uh especially horror people, are drawn to um non-traditional learning styles. Like we we the our entry point is a little different.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah. You know, it's funny, I like horror is just full of theater kids. Like I'm thinking of Nat Cassidy, Eric La Roca, Sam Rebeline, like all these, whether it's I didn't know that. Yeah, have them on. We can have like a theater symposium.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

That would be so much fun. And my theater company did a lot of uh actual horror plays. Um because you know, you want to scratch that itch. Well, I'm I'm curious, what what drew you to horror specifically? Uh, you've been writing for a while. Uh did you start with horror when you were 12, or did was that something you crept into?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

I mean, I will I'll be honest. Like, I it it was there from a really early age. I was a scaredy cat. Like I I had uh, you know, I don't want to get in like the pop psychology of it all, but like there was probably a an a period of my childhood where like I had night hairs, um, there were certain things kind of going on in the domestic sphere that just led to like, ugh, like I I needed an outlet, and I was an only child, and I had a lot of time on my hands, and a lot of nightmares and um horror as a kind of counterpoint to that. Like, there's the things that we deal with as human beings, but then there's the like, you know, I I do find a certain catharsis in watching Halloween. And, you know, and you know, beyond the roller coaster of it or the the kind of adrenaline like uh ride, um I think there is something to be said about horror, uh, particularly when you're young, um, being being there for you to kind of like release these these kind of pent-up fears or trepidations or anxieties and giving them like a safe release. Um But yeah, like that one babysitter she put on Halloween, like way too young, and that I was I was hooked.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

I think we talk about this a lot on a sub-channel where we do like editorial content, but we talk a lot about horror as catharsis and a controlled way to approach the the nastiness of daily life. But we also talk a lot about horror as a rite of passage, and um it's taboo, you're crossing over into something distinctly adult, and I think it's so important for young audiences to have an approachable way to come into the horror, uh the horror sphere. And I think you really do that lovely with Shiny Happy People, your upcoming novel, uh, which is coming out in November. Um your first YA release. So what what inspired you to try a YA novel?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I mean, I it's interesting because the someone approached me, um, and it was because I I wrote this novel a while back called Ghost Eaters, which was all about like a haunted drug. And um it it did okay. I think it did pretty good. And uh it's definitely probably one of the better known things that I've done. And uh it it hit like certain people kind of responded to it, and they're like this one uh company, like you know, reached out and they're like, hey, have you know, like what would you think of like doing a like a body snatchers version, like you know, invasion of the like Snapchats? Uh and um, you know, I I grew up in a time where like, you know, I remember the faculty, I remember, you know, and and kind of going through the body snatcher, you know, every generation has their own version of that and loving them all, but but definitely the the Donald Sutherland one being my my personal fave. Um, yeah, I mean, honestly, like it was it was literally someone saying, Have you ever thought about doing a body snatcher story for our day and age? Speaking specifically to social media, peer pressure, and uh uh the opioid epidemic, and like how you know these things kind of permeate and kind of insinuate themselves into seemingly innocent people, and you know, everyday people. And uh I was like, that sounds like a fun kind of challenge. Um, and so I I went for it. And uh lo and behold, shiny happy people again.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

And I think all those themes come through extremely well. Like the social media aspect of it is it's sharp commentary. Um, the opioid aspect. One thing that you didn't mention that I'm curious about is the juxtaposition of big tobacco versus big pharma, yeah, uh specifically in this little town. Was that was that pointed? Uh tell me a little bit about that theme.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Well, I mean, it you know, I am a Virginia boy and I grew up in, you know, tobacco country. Uh, you know, uh RJR was right there. Like, you know, it like big tobacco was such a like my my God, I had a like a member of my family actually worked for Philip Morris for years. And uh, you know, it it was always something that was kind of present, uh, even if it was just kind of like driving down the street, and you know, here are just m acres upon acres of tobacco fields. Um, and I I grew up in the shadow of those, those kind of that industry and that, those plants, and watching it collapse or kind of like atrophy. And, you know, seeing you can't necessarily say it like rose up from the ashes of big tobacco, but but big pharma kind of like carved out its own specific kind of place that has since kind of gone through its own personal particular uh uh trials and travails. Um and it just feels like a hydra head to me. It's like you cut off the head of one and outsprouts another, and it just it's I I don't know. I I wanted to, you know, I I don't know if I make kind of how sharp the point is, but I do feel like in the book, you know, you have one industry dying and another just taking its place, and they look almost exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, the same sort of addiction-based business model. It's it's scary. I never considered it before, which is why I put it in my notes. I was like, oh my goodness, that is absolutely what's happening. Uh leveraging those same mechanisms.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I mean, at least this is the awful thing to say, forgive me, but like, you know, at least they're like the like, you know, Big Pharma never had like a Joe Camel or like a like a like a mascot, which maybe that's a lesson to someone learned, but uh yeah, it's just it's it's terrifying how targeted youth culture is as a like this is this is here for you because you are our target uh you know uh audience client base, you know, market. Um, and we're just going to advertise to you, you know, like this is this is for you, whether we ever say it out loud or not. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

And kids don't have the defense mechanisms or the media literacy to stand up to that. Uh it's just a third part of the peer pressure that uh exists in this book. You you have peer pressure from friends, you have peer pressure from family as well, which I think is under talked about.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Um, but that third corporate peer pressure is you know, that's the icing on the cake.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Um which is why I mean, like, it's so ripe for a a a pod person body snatcher narrative, because that is nothing but peer pressure. Like, I I like it, I just like the beyond the kind of paranoia of like who who are you and are you who you say you are, but like the the kind of external, like you're just tired. Like, let's go to sleep. Like, you know, just like it'll be everything will be okay in the morning. Um I just I love that. It's my catnip.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah. It's a it's a uh I think uh close to a quote from the book, I think you say generic gentrification, but it's a social gentrification that we don't actually uh nobody's having that conversation. We look at like cities and uh neighborhoods being gentrified, but a social gentrification I thought was a really interesting thing to present to a young audience, which yeah. You're making me sound so smart here, man. I totally meant to do all of the things you just said. I would have needed this book, I would have devoured this book when I was a kid. I came up on Goosebumps and Are You Afraid of the Dark? I'm you know, born in the 80s, uh solidified as a person, a little gelatinous vents in the 90s. And so um, you know, I would have devoured this book. I needed to hear this book because I think this book plays right to individuality and self-actualization, and uh successfully or unsuccessfully in the end, yeah, um, you know, but it's if I had to distill this book down, and I always ask this question uh directors handle this question so very differently than authors. Um, but I'm gonna float out a couple of themes, and the one theme that I think is the most empowering, and you can tell me what you wanted the audience to leave this book with, if there was something you wanted them to do or think or feel. But I think really this story comes down to what makes us human. Yeah the good, the bad, the ugly, uh, love, anger, pain, sadness. Maybe there's beauty in all of it, and our scars are what make us who we truly are. And I wonder, is there something you hope that a young reader might leave feeling or thinking or doing? And a director typically handles that by going, yes, because I was a director, and that's a director's question. Um, an author's like, I want people to have a good time, but I however you want to answer it.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

I mean, it's so funny because I feel like you know, I shouldn't speak for authors in general, but maybe like that there's just this sense of like, I have no idea what my books are about, and someone out and someone needs to tell me what it is that I have done to them because otherwise I'm in trouble. Um but uh I mean I I do think there is something to be said about uh you youth today, kids today. Um I just uh the sense that I get is just the the kind of like the sh the sheer amount of peer pressure to fit in, which has always been there. It's just kind of been like they're just different iterations of it, but like the notion of like not calling attention to yourself and just kind of like that homon homonization of uh of of personality. Um I mean I have two kids and uh you know I see with our eldest, like he's navigating middle school right now, and just that idea of like when is when can he feel like a singular individual individual, like a a person, versus like uh wanting to keep his head low and you know not call attention to himself and all of those those like the scars and the imperfections and the things that make you kind of wholly singular and make you you um those are things to be celebrated uh in a culture that wants to celebrate that, but I think also uh there is that fear of you know sticking out or or being a target. And uh um whether that's bullying or or just the n the the the need to fit in, like that I don't know. Like I just think of like there's that far side comic where it's like a uh you know, you've got in Antarctic, there's like a dozen different, you know, hundred different penguins, and there's this one that's kind of like standing up and being like, I gotta be me. Um I I I just want I just want me to be me and my son to be my son and like never lose that sense of kind of individuality in a in a culture that seems to be celebrating or or or just trying to like keep keep the head low, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

And in a culture that celebrates to some extent substance use, I thought, you know, I thought back to like the films that we had coming up, like Can't Hardly Wait, or any teen comedy was set at a party, everybody's drinking. We can go to horror and they break the rules and scream, everybody's drinking while saying you can't drink or do drugs. Uh and I thought it was interesting as somebody who doesn't drink uh or or do any mind-altering substances. I thought it was refreshing how this didn't glorify the parties. They were actually giant sources of danger in the novel. Um and, you know, I think it was a really well-walked tightrope of exposing how kids are, as well as showing that, you know, maybe you you don't have to do that. If we're if we're relating to our protagonists, you don't necessarily have to be that. Did you have a specific kind of approach, or was that just something that happened because of the plot?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um it's, you know, it's funny because I keep saying it's funny. Uh I was watching way too much euphoria while writing this book. And you know, you find your spirit animals, and for me, I was like, oh, let's marry body snatchers with euphoria. Um, which euphoria is already terrifying in of itself. You don't need to add a layer of genre onto that for it to be the most terrifying, horrifying non-horror anything ever. Um, because the the kind of warts and all of it, and just the kind of like what what what happens within this this kind of specific microcosm of of the world. Um I just watch that show and I'm just like, it's candy hued, it's so colorful and so bright, and yet it is the scariest friggin' thing I've ever seen. And uh I wanted to emulate that to the extent that um, you know, uh party culture and and kind of the the the kind of drinking and and kind of the the the parental like we we've created certain safe spaces to allow younger people to kind of experiment or explore and the the inherent risk of like you know mom or dad saying like oh you can have a party at our house and you know I'll I'll buy you whatever kind of booze and you know like just keep it at home and it'll be safe and like uh you know I trust you. And like just that that to me felt like a a a kind of ripe place for uh getting a little getting a little spooky. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

I also, you know, this we're we it's no secret, we we're dealing with addiction a lot with this uh with this novel. And as somebody who's had addiction very close to home without going into all the gory details, and certainly not to the impact that Kira is Kyra or Kira. How do you how how should her name be said?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

You know, it's so funny. This may be the first time I'm gonna say the name out loud, but I'm gonna say Kira. Kira. Kira. Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Love it. Uh Love it. Um so Kira had some really huge trauma associated with addiction, and my trauma was nowhere near that, although it did hit very close to home. Um I wonder how you can approach it with such a I mean, it was there were moments in this book that like gut punched me. Um sort of moments where you think things are resolved and they're so not resolved, and it's just another form of addiction. Um hit very close to home. How did you walk that tightrope with all of the horror and all of the gut punches, but with all of the sensitivity of somebody who's not villainizing addiction or demonizing people who are suffering from that? I thought it was super well handled without flattering you too much.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Well, I mean, frankly, this might be one of the first times I'm ever even talking out loud about this with anyone. So, you know, for me, like the jury is still out. Um, purely because I mean this book doesn't come out for a couple months now. And like, you know, the the initial reader reviews have been really positive, which is such a huge relief. But, you know, to get to what you're speaking of, I it's tough and it's scary because you know, the older I get and the more kind of the I have to own up to my own identity as like a cis white older man you know writing about a young uh woman in high school like you know like and and and and for me like it's kind of like how like am I do I have permission to write this like what is what is what is you know in the things that she is specifically going through like if they are not my personal experiences does that still give me uh license to like explore them and you know having had like a lot of kind of uh friendly conversations with with editors and and and beta readers like it's always that that kind of notion of like being honest to the emotion like being true to the emotional content of the character and if that rings true if you're you know it it it ceases to be or it's on the path to not be exploitative or there purely for the sake of uh you know trauma trauma decor you know like you you have to be honest about it and um you know for me like I I always kind of shirked away that that idea of write what you know but but speak specifically like recalibrate it to write what you feel um and the things that Kira goes through in terms of her own anxiety and her own kind of fears of like well if I do this if I if I drink this does that set me off a path of my mother or you know always wanting to be in control and not letting letting go an inch because that's the only way you know how to be that Kira knows how to be and that's like you know I growing up I had family members who dealt with substance abuse or alcoholism and had friends who dealt with substance abuse and seen how their their lives and the lives of those kind of in their immediate orbit were altered because of their addiction. Um you know we we carry that we hold on to that and it's like I I grew up with this this kind of single-mindedness of like I need to not be my father I need to not be like like and it's it's just this mental thing that is like this is this is how I identify myself because I am not this person or I am not like that family member.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

So Kira's anxiety is in fact that's my anxiety because that's all I that's that's how I grew up yeah I I share that as someone who probably drank too much and then quit drinking because I had gotten married and was running a nonprofit theater I I I didn't want to become my father so it hit so true to me. I I just I couldn't leave that question on the table. It's a vulnerable thing that I don't talk about on camera at all.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

But yeah I appreciate it and you know I you asking the question actually makes me you know it compels me it forces me to kind of answer it for myself because like I mean literally this is probably the first conversation I've about shiny happy people with anybody. And so you're asking and I'm like oh wow I guess that is in there and like yes here we go. It's a it's a doozy and I and I and I I want to give I want to pay lip service to Josh Mallerman because he wrote this amazing book a while back called uh oh my God am I gonna say uh Daphne Daphne um which I've not read that one it's a really good one it it it's one that like kind of it it it has this kind of singular intent behind it and it speaks very specifically about anxiety and I remember reading it as I was working on this book and just being like this is my North Star like the characters in this book are dealing with their own anxiety and how how they kind of channel it. And I was like oh I learned from the best copy from the best I copied from Josh Mellon.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah honestly steal like an artist you you're it's gonna be different because it's yours. It's interesting you mentioned anxiety there's a really cool visual metaphor for anxiety in this book that keeps uh sprouting up shall we say um the the the vines of the anxiety mirroring the vines of the pod people it was just I there's no question here I'm just being flattering uh it was so well done i this book pulls no punches for young readers this is a clay McLeod Chapman novel it just happens to be set in high school and I want to really say that for our listeners because if you're a fan of Clay's work you will like this book if you're a 42 year old man uh you know I I just I don't think that you have back in any way the vocabulary I that was like did he just throw a purloined in there was that this that's an SAT word. Uh the vocabulary is rich the metaphors are rich visually the the the literary metaphors are rich um the subject matter is brave and fearless and so I'm I'm hyping this book because I think that adult readers should also put this on their to be read list.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Your lips a million readers' ears because Lord knows like how how does anybody find a book these days like I you know I I was very fortunate to be able to write this book and tell this story and now it's like oh man I have to find people to read it like that's you know it's uh that's you know it's one thing to get that book on the shelf but my golly how do you get it off how do you get the book off the shelf?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah we always celebrate specifically with independent filmmakers and we say there's always something to love about every film even if it's just the fact that it was on a screen. Yeah. But you know our part in that ecosystem is to lift up these independent voices and you know voices that have publishers as well it's specifically in this day and age where reading is maybe not everyone's first hobby. There are plenty of people don't if you if you love reading I'm not I'm not dismissing you that the I'm a big reader. But it's hard to it's hard to generate that that momentum. That's I honestly when I transitioned from artist to critic first of all your whole identity gets reorganized. That being an artist is such an intrinsic part of who you are. I just remembered that there were not a lot of people who were willing to go out and champion the work that was being done on independent stages. Even you know you're a nonprofit you're a semi-professional theater uh but there weren't a lot of people banging the drum for us so my job here is to uplift voices that I think are valid and boy do I think this is a valid book. And you have another book coming out before this I just didn't get a copy of it yet so I can't talk to it uh very specifically but it's a collection of short stories called Acquired Taste and if I'm not mistaken it comes out on the 9th is that when it comes out yeah September 9th. That's a week before you're you all are listening to this so there's still time it it's still it's at your local bookstore or available digitally and I know I will be getting it uh if not on Audible then in hard copy at my local Barnes and Noble which they are I'm that we're not sponsored by them we they just have a really good employee who picks really good stuff to highlight. Um but yeah uh so I'm very much so looking forward to acquired taste do you want to give us a rundown of what that looks like I'm I'm interested in this this is a a selfish question.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah I mean it's it's loopy it's a doozy. It's uh it's 25 short stories um probably written within like the scope of like the last like seven to eight years. Um a lot of them uh were published out there in the ether uh except for one there's one previously unreleased track so um and you know it's honestly like short stories are like that's where I just get all my obsessions out like I have I I like to write a lot about how terrifying parenthood is um I I I don't know like it's just it like it had there's everything in there like I it's the kitchen sink thing like there's you know haunted hammers or uh evil batch of baby carrots or uh uh uh like a uh you know a uh cult of axolotl worshipping nuns um you know fungal infections that go really bad like it's you know it's uh I but these are the things that like you know maybe it's to say that like the world is pretty scary um but like the mundane is so scary like I just you know every time I see a hammer I'm like what if that was haunted or I see a stuffed animal I'm like what if that's a monster or like you know just like it's it's I I I don't do drugs but I feel like I have like a million stoner epiphanies where I'll just be like kind of sitting there like minding my own business and I'll see something and I'll be like whoa what if that hammer had a ghost in it you know it's like that that's this is what my head does for better or for worse.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

If you didn't have me at Parenthood Horror because that I as I have a she's gonna be two in November and I have another one on the way in uh December. I don't my wife does but yeah thank you um having a toddler is the most enlightening thing you learn so much about yourself because they're mini mirrors um but it's also the most gratifying thing when she says that's brown and I'm like yeah I taught you that awesome you know uh but but it's also a constant barrage of fears so you had me there but if I wasn't sold then I'm definitely sold on haunted hammer because I have to know what this is about.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah there's a haunted hammer in there. God too many you know I put a ghost in it there's there's that sketch from Portlandia where like put a bird on it. Like for me it's just put a ghost in it.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

That's that's all I do. I love it. I love it. I um I I would love to just pick your brain about uh so many of your books um but I want to just give a little bit of love to wake up and open your eyes because it's still sitting on our best of list for 2025 and I don't see it I don't see it being dethroned uh off the best of list. I it it was so relevant so sharp so poignant so bleak um in my review I and I want to I want to uh it's not a retraction but I want to amend my review and say I said everybody sucks here and it's not that the characters suck it's what happens to them makes them suck. The characters were really fleshed out and I just want to clarify my review but um it was just so I mean it made me take a look at myself as I'm sitting there judging people who may sit across the aisle from me in my political beliefs I was forced to then judge myself because I was judging them. Yeah uh yeah and and I'm obsessed with mind viruses. So I was bought in from the beginning of that novel. I cracked the book and I was like oh and that first I I will also say the first movement of that book was gnarly and so very uncomfortable to read.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah yeah it's if I can keep you past the first 70 pages it's like it's all downhill after page 71 and uh like I I you know the amount of DNFs I have gotten off of this book it's like I know I know where you stop and it's like it's like oh you know 68 like page 68 I'm out done can't read this book and I get it like it's like a it's not a pleasurable experience and uh you know in terms of your amendment I uh I love that because like I do think uh people come into this book in particular and they're so ready to like uh cast judgment uh like I don't like these characters none of these characters are likable like uh and you know there's a certain kind of amount of that is there by design of like what is it that you dear reader are bringing to the table and you know it's so easy to like you know like start wagging your finger at like you have different political beliefs than me and therefore I am going to wag wag wag. Um but I do think that the book comes full circle and says well why did you do that like what what you know what I yeah what gives you the right to to feel that way and are you somehow better than anyone else and yeah I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

You made me complicit. By the end of that book I was complicit and had to be like oh I need a mind virus vaccine here for a second. I had to like take a breather I really really challenging stuff.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah in the best possible way you know like honestly like that book is you know it's been out for nine months now and uh you know like I don't know people either I don't know I don't know if it's a love-hate sort of thing but it's it's definitely like it it there's no kind of middle there's no meh to it it's like you either like are like okay I can get behind this or like I never want to read this guy ever again well I am not of that camp I'm I'm fully behind it.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I can't wait to talk about it again in January on camera. I talk about it actually probably more than I should uh not on camera to my wife who I'm like gotta read this she's like my wife does uh a sister channel for dread alert media our listeners are sick of hearing this but if you haven't followed her yet you probably should she does uh spooky families which is recommendations for spooky and horror content from birth to 17 so her list is full of YA stuff and she'll be reviewing shiny happy people on her channel as well um but yeah I'm like when I when I give her an adult rec she's like I have 18 arcs I have to finish and I'm like I hear my heart goes out to you dear um it's a good looping happy people I have one more Yeah exactly and that comes out November 11th from Delacourte Books if I haven't said it yet I'm gonna say it again at the end so put your listening ears on. I I have one more question about this book and it's more a question about you but there are plenty of gross scenes in this book and there are some really good action terrifying action sequences in this book is there one that stands out without spoiling too much that you were really looking forward to getting to or really looking forward to writing oh my god I loved the uh pep rally scene yes that was that was the fun one I was like I want to write a pep rally so full disclosure as I'm reading it I'm like I don't know that I'm gonna let our daughter do cheerleading I don't think I am like I literally was like I had to stop I was like I don't think I should let her do that yeah yeah I mean like the party scenes the dance party prologue at the beginning um I mean the there's the drug dealer scene in the house the basement that was a lot of fun like I just it was really for me it was just like oh wow I've always wanted to do this and then I was like I'm gonna do it I'm gonna write a pep rally scene it was awesome uh I I love the the Scarface references all I'll this book is a ton of fun I mean it's it's it's dark it is unflinching at times it makes you question your own humanity um what makes us human but at the end of the day I had a good time reading it which I think is the biggest endorsement as a reader as a reviewer and as a reader that I'm able to give a book is that I didn't I wasn't like oh man how many more pages I was like I was like I gotta get this finished before this interview happens on on Tuesday or or Friday or whatever day whatever day it is um what is time yeah honestly we we just we just did press coverage for a convention we have press coverage for Fantastic Fest coming up and we have another convention in October so I honestly don't quite know what time is right now but are you gonna be able to go to Fantastic? We are not gonna be in person we're doing remote coverage um I don't know that the little one would hold up at grandma's for that long um I have a film that's gonna be I there yes I'm very excited do you want to talk about it for a second and give a little plug?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Plug plug plug uh the restoration at Grayson Manor it is a very gothic queer killer hand movie um starring Chris Kulfer from Glee um directed by Glenn McQuaid and it's uh yeah it's like if Oliver Stone's the hand married uh Harold and Maud. That's my that's my pitch.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

I'm so looking forward to it. I'm hoping that we're able to get a screener and give some coverage to it because uh anything with your name attached to it it has my interest at the outset.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

So I don't I'm gonna lose your interest at some point I'm gonna test that theory too much.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

You're gonna push me over yeah I'm gonna be like oh gnarly oh I can't know um I have a I have a high tolerance for gnarly things or um bleak things. I I feel like you do bleak very well as well uh it's it's good. Yeah. Um so I have two questions that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast and uh one of them you've already sort of answered but I'm gonna give you another chance to highlight it.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

What you list a number of inspirations for this novel um body snatcher stories do you have a favorite body snatcher book or story that you want to give some love to uh um I mean the 70s the 70s invasion of the body snatchers is a just a classic like I you know the amount of times I could watch and rewatch that movie it it's it it is ultimately my favorite I I still have kind of on constant replay in my head the end with Donald Sutherland and I totally steal that for the book so like it's it's just there's just no two ways about it. Like that's that's my my yums right there.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Steal like an artist that's good stuff. Do you have a favorite all-time desert island horror movie? I know everybody has trouble with this question. It's so hard to pick it's like it's one it's just it's just one you can you can throw out a couple I'm always interested in recommendations.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Okay. I mean my my favorites Evil Dead 2 for sure David Cronenberg in general pre M butterfly but like I think Dead Ringers is actually my favorite. I don't think I've seen that 1988 Jeremy Irons it's beautiful. It's it's it kind of heralded a a certain shift into his more mature work. He was like shifting away from body horror into more uh dramatic prestige horror I guess um but I I love that movie it's so upsetting um and I I mean like those are definitely the two that like I remember who I was watching them um and then Barton Fink by the Cohen brothers which is horror adjacent maybe yeah so I'll take it okay this is why I love that question is because there's always something that wiser people than me can add to my watch list.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

So I'm just selfishly asking for your horror recommendations. When Stephen Graham Jones was on before this was a podcast and I I gotta give some love to that weasel plume shirt. Excellent shirt I have one as well uh Greg Green does great stuff with these shirts. He's amazing he Steven turned me on to um near dark which I hadn't seen and that's like my favorite vampire movie of all time now.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Catherine Pigelow can do no wrong in my heart.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I can't believe I slept on that for 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

But that's the thing it's there. It's just waiting for you like you just have to like you have to find it like whenever the time is right. It's it's just there.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Good luck finding a Blu-ray copy that's not uh region B, but uh yeah no once I tracked it down it was excellent. Okay, so uh we talked a lot about what you got coming up next. We have acquired taste next Tuesday we have shiny happy people on November 11th from Delacour Books. Anything else that you have uh we talked about Fantastic Fest anything else you have coming up next that you'd like to plug I mean that's a I'm asking a lot already so I feel like those are I those I'm gonna stick to those because those are all this year. 2026 has its own stuff but like yeah shiny happy people acquired taste restoration at grace and manner um yeah they're I mean yeah wake up and open your eyes if you're still looking for something you know icky absolutely those are that's those are my plugs hey that's great maybe in 2026 whenever those things are revealed we'll have you back on the show this has been a blast uh clay let people know where they can find you I'll put this in the uh description for the episode as well but where can people find you if they want to see you online?

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Oh lordy lordy I'm on the Instagrams the blue skies the threads the Facebooks still on Twitter for some silly reason um I mean like I'm I'm doing all of the social medias poorly basically so I'm out there you can find me and do you have a website we can go to?

SPEAKER_00 44:25

I do. It's claymaconchantman.com oh imagine that uh Clay this has been a true pleasure I know we spoke before we started recording about how grateful I am as a fan to have you here um but as a host I think you uh this this was just a fantastic time thank you so much for joining us hey thank you for uh putting up with me I really appreciate it thanks for thanks for chatting awesome and as always stay spooky my friends