SPEAKER_02 0:00

CJ, thank you for coming back to the podcast. We actually, I think you're our first returning guest.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

No way. Wow, it feels thank you so much for having me back. I really I loved I loved coming on here before. So this is fun.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

When I heard that you were having uh a new book come out in June, I was like, wow, that's my birth month. I have to well, we will move mountains to get you back. So I'm really glad you could join us.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Are you a Gemini?

SPEAKER_02 0:24

I am a Gemini, which is probably unsurprising to a ton of people who know me in real life and maybe a few online too.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

That's amazing. I like knowing everybody's. This is, I guess, the LA of me, but I like knowing everybody's uh astrological situation.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

I should mention my wife is a Pisces, which is a non-traditional kind of pairing here, but we're making we've been making it work for like 15 years. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I love it. Hey, it all it all works, and there's like a million factors, you know. It's just that's just the one, the one sun side. Yeah, aren't you glad you asked me back so we could talk about astrology in the first five seconds? This is Golvin.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

If you were if you're still watching, the book is called Headlights, go check it out. Um no, well, we brought you back to talk about headlights. Uh, this is a very unique book. Before we started rolling, we were talking about how there aren't a lot of comps for this. I mean, it is a detective story, it is supernatural, um, which departs a bit from if you're familiar with CJ's other books, May Fly was uh a very practical book. Um so this is new, and I was really excited when I cracked it open. And like I told you before, I pretty much read this straight through, stopping only to eat. I was just, I couldn't put it down. I had the time set aside, and it was phenomenal. So yeah, I'm a big thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

That's amazing to hear. It's it's not a short book, so that's like the greatest possible thing I could hear. It's um, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of the comps are shows and movies, more than uh I guess uh The Shining is a book and uh Silence of the Lambs. Obviously, those are books, but like True Detective and you know, that's been kind of the or Long Legs, these X-Files have been kind of the comps that have been circulating. But it's a it's an odd book because I was tackling to me like the topic that is the most like the most slippery, impossible to tackle, which is like what is death? And where do people go? And like, can we reach them after they go and do they want us to? And like all of this was kind of what I was grappling with in the book. And I I think the book kind of reflects that in content, but also maybe like formally a bit, because it's it's it's an odd one, and it uh if that makes sense. Am I am I pitching my book well?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

I you you are. I think that I think that the unique voice that you have as an author mixed with the unique genre mashup was really what is the biggest selling point for me about this book. Uh, give us a log line, just tell us broadly what it's about so we could talk a little bit around around the spoilers.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, very easy book to spoil. Uh, but I would say so people are waking up on the side of the highway in Colorado with no memory of how they got there, and they're naked and wearing the skin of someone they've allegedly never met, um, miles from where they started, and with a stranger's hair tied around their tongues. And um the sort of very tortured detective or or special agent, whatever it is with FBI, I forgot now. Um I did I did heavy research on this book. I just I finished it a while ago. Um he has to come back and kind of not only be drawn back into the case, but also like have to face a lot about his life in the process. And it gets crazy.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

That was the pitch you gave with minus the hair around the tongue. I don't believe that was the pitch you gave me last time you were on the show. And I was like, I have to track down this arc, I have to read this book because uh what do you make of that setup? It's just so intriguing. So I was like, what? So yeah, uh, and I think that the payoff for that setup is as much of a gut punch as any of your other novels, which are gut punchy, but also extremely um, and I want to talk around this, I don't want to spoil anything, but it was extremely validating for me to finish it. I I felt like I came to terms with a lot as a person over the course of this novel because you put your main character, you put Danny through a lot. I'm curious, what was it like writing someone who's been to war, someone who is uh an FBI agent, and also, unlike your previous two novels that I've read, is a male protagonist. Were there any uh differences in your approach to writing this one?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, uh the research was like it went on forever. I this book I think took me like four and a half, five years, all told, something like that. Um I spoke to like six authenticity readers um who kind of weighed in with various expertise. I really wanted to, I mean, it's fiction, I'm never gonna get everything right, but I wanted the procedural elements to make sense, the forensic elements. I wanted uh to really um, I think veteran stories are so important. And I think like we as a society, you know, expect people who've been through the the most insane things to sort of like come back and reintegrate as though nothing's happened. And that's crazy to me and fascinating. And um I think I was kind of interested in this book and this idea that like we always sort of give book characters or movie characters like one traumatic thing that they've been through. But some people, frankly, are not that lucky and have many traumas. I mean, we all have many traumas, but some people face so many horrific things early in life. And that's this character. He's somebody who's just had to live through so much again and again. And kind of like that compound grief, that compound trauma, and over time just like sort of looking around, and he's asking himself, like, how am I supposed to go on when life is just losing everybody I love or them losing me? Like, how do I how do I come to terms with that? And I think that's I think my other two books were really kind of like me saying I have an issue with certain things, you know, like pointing out something that I felt I didn't like in the world and saying I don't love it. Um and there was a lot of rage and all of those kind of like a lot of intensity with those two books. This book is more like asking a question of this, like, what is death? And and I can only sort of propose one potential answer, which I do in the book, but in some ways, even though it's so dark, it's like a gentler book. It's kind of you know what I mean? It's kind yeah. So that was an interesting change. And um it kind of felt like, and I think grief feels like this, but it kind of felt like stumbling around in the dark and just following lights as they appeared, and those were kind of my characters, and really kind of asking them again and again, like, how how does this story need to be told? Like, I I saw them at the beginning and I knew the setup and I knew, but like I didn't know is it is it two POVs? Is it one? Is it um do I tell it in the present tense? Like all of these things just were kind of I had to try a lot. Um, but the male POV thing, you know, uh there was some resistance from you know early on. A lot of people were like, what are you doing? Um, but I just wrote him as a person, you know, and I I really want to have a body of work. I'm supposed to put out a book a year. I really want to have a body of work in which like every person alive can look at any of my, you know, look at my canon and go, you know what, that's my favorite book. That's what really resonates with me. So I'm trying to play a lot. Horror is a huge umbrella, and I'm trying to play a lot within this genre and kind of try a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

I think it's interesting too because I really enjoyed Mayfly and I really enjoyed American Rapture, and horror asks us for that cross-gender empathy, but sometimes you get this book and you feel extremely seen just while you're experiencing it. Um, I'm I have a wonderful mother who is on hospice right now, and I had a father who was not necessarily thank you. She's honestly, they didn't think she'd make it out of the hospital in October, but she's still kicking around, and uh she's I I I think it's spite and willpower. Uh she she's the strongest world person I know. Uh but I didn't, I she is that way because I had a father who was not a good person by traditional measures. And it's taken me most of my adult life to see my father as a full human being and to come to he's passed away. I don't want to speak too ill of the dead, but to come to terms with him doing the best that he could in the ways that he knew how. And I don't want to get into too many plot elements here, but I think the relationship of a father and a son or a surrogate father and a son, and now that I am father to a son since December, uh, you know, what is the legacy I'm going to give him? What are the traumas I'm not going to pass on? And what new traumas am I going to accidentally think up? Um, all of these were really resonant with me in shaping Danny also to the point of even even Danny's name and and uh it's it's it's it's this is like a first three-page spoiler, but choosing your own identity apart from your family and and and arriving at this arriving at you outside of what is dictated to you by the circumstances you're in. All of that was so beautiful. All of which is to say, uh how how did that aspect enter the narrative? Was it a function of the trauma that the character needed to establish a baseline, or is that something that was just a curious thing you were working through with parenting, or parents, uh with your parents?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah. Thank you. Well, so thank you. And um, and I'm so sorry about your mother and um congrats on your kid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

I'm I'm happy she stuck around long enough to meet him. I mean, that's that we were we were it was time to go. And she gets the gift of seeing her grandson, so it's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Wow. It you know, all of this, all of this, these were kind of the questions I I was asking myself, is like this whole life business, this whole mortality business, and um what do we pass on, what do we inherit, and uh our time on this planet is so kind of fleeting. And I I think that's not one question that's 50 questions. You know, that's like that's all the questions. That's um, I think to me it probably started this book was weird. It kind of dropped into my head uh uh Danny and his his situation. Like I just kind of knew what it was. It probably I mean it was very heavily inspired, uh obviously by The Shining um and the the famous uh father in in The Shining, who we all know. Uh and I think so much of what I was really struggling with was just like uh finding I don't know how to say like finding purpose and finding the good in these moments that just feel like so perpetually dark and and wondering if we can leave something else uh behind. And um yeah, I was just struggling with a lot of grief. I just lost a lot of people, like kind of back to back in my life. And it was really I I had a very I was very lucky. I I didn't really lose anybody until my mid-20s, like in my whole life. I really had uh I didn't experience a lot of death when I was young, and I had no idea like what a gift that was, and actually what a rare gift that was. Yeah, yeah, it's it's just rare, and um, I was so lucky, and then it was like suddenly I felt like I was playing catch up. It was just like boom, boom, boom, for like a 10-year period. And um it was strange and totally like baffling, and and so this book was really yeah, I don't know if I really answered the question, but this this book was that it was sort of like what do I do with this? And what it what does life here mean? And is there anything left over of people who we and obviously Colorado has like a lot of ghost history, but then also has The Shining, which is about ghosts and all this sort of idea of like even I started to play with like DNA shed in my head and and ghosts, and sort of like, is it like that? Do we accidentally just leave parts of ourselves wherever we go? Or do are so then are we encountering parts of other people all the time? And it was like all these things.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

No, I I love that answer, and uh as sorry as I am to hear about that string of losses, I think that's a beautiful response to it. Uh, to recognize the gratitude of having them for such a long time. That that's beautiful. I was thinking a lot about yeah, uh I was thinking a lot about your words. Uh maybe it was the afterwards of American Rapture where you say that horror is a genre where we can look at the darker things and and not look away the whole time I was reading this book. It was this book has a lot to do with um processing that trauma. And um it stands on the shoulders of a book that is uh a little bit about processing trauma as well and ghosts as well. And the last time you were on the show, you mentioned that The Shining is like a comfort movie for you. And I don't I don't wanna uh I mean you get there pretty quickly in the novel. I don't want to say, you know, too much about how that plays out. There was a point where I screamed out loud, I was like, yes! There's a certain location. I was like, yes! Um I I actually verbally said that. But how do you approach taking such a classic, such a known entity, and elevating the source material and writing something completely unique from it while leveraging it so specifically? I think it was just so a such a graceful tightrope walk that you did with this.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Thank you. I'm glad it worked. Uh, you know, you never know if it's working until you know, um, or until other people tell you. But I think early on in the process of working on this book, a lot of readers, I I have like early my early readers, a lot of feedback was like either you gotta cut the shining or you gotta lean all the way in. You know, it can't be this like halfway. And I thought I don't want to cut it, you know, like this is I'm really I don't know how you write a Colorado horror novel and and don't explicitly talk about the shining, you know what I mean? And my whole project is like really writing these places and so much of their history. And so for me in Horror World, that was just like a necessity. So um I went all in. I went kind of balls to the wall with it. Uh, and I actually watched the mini-series, which we talked about right before we started recording, uh, in a haunted room at the Stanley Hotel, which of course inspired The Shining. And I did the Stephen King tour, and it was really cool, and it was just the best time researching all of this.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

That's so cool. I need to, I'm in Pittsburgh. It's like a very long drive. Um, but it's uh probably gonna have to jump on a plane. I need to get out there.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

It's awesome. I mean, it's really I think it's very worth it. It feels magical.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

That's that's I don't know. It's such such a I love doing horror history, like horror locations, and that seems like one that is a must visit. I have to ask though, do you think that it required a sort of bravery to do that, to to say, yes, I'm going full force with this, or or was it just like a foregone conclusion once you got that feedback?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Uh probably. Um I make I make a lot of decisions that I think uh a lot of folks would be like, what are you doing? Like, I mean, my first book was like all took place at this theme park of this very obviously it's fake, it's not real, but this like very famously litigious uh company. And um, you know, I I've I guess I've done that now with three books. Um there's a joke about the the lawyer, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but the the lawyers at uh my publishing house not always being the fondest of my books for for these reasons. So uh also I'm always paying money uh for like epigraphs. Like I think the epigraphs are very important. I want to always like say very upfront, like I'm I'm interacting with this material, I'm celebrating this material, I love this material. And so um that's always a funny permissions runaround situation, like kind of um making sure we can put those quotes in the beginning of the book, but it matters to me. Um we're horror people. I don't know. I just don't know how I wouldn't have done this. And it was fun, and it it's I love The Shining because it asks this question too of like how much of creation or writing is madness or is born out of madness, or how much of being a writer or an artist uh negatively could impact the people around you or positive, not really positively in that book. But um, you know, I think all of these, and then obviously there's an addiction component um with that story as well. It's just fascinating to me. I I there's so much there, but yeah, I don't know, probably it probably wasn't the smartest move in all ways, but I enjoyed it and it felt right, and so I feel good about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

No, I it it it raised my investment level as a fan of the film. I have to confess I've never read the book. I'm like I read it, I'm not afraid of a large book. I know, I just I don't know what happened there. That's just a gap in my personal canon. I gotta get to it.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

It's a very different flavor than the movie or even the mini-series. Well, I guess it's much more like the miniseries, but it's kind of like it's a fun book, you know. It's a it's fun. I think you yeah, I think you should read it.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

I once once we get a gap in the content schedule, and to your point, the madness of art. Like, I remember how much we sacrificed how running a theater company. Like I we had our first kid when I was 40. Uh that's like, you know, and my wife was my wife is eight years younger than me, so she was 32, and our second when I was 42. So we put a lot of our life on hold. I I mean, yeah, that that resonates with me, the madness of art making. Even content creation is a bit overwhelming. My kid's like, Dad, I want to play fishing rod, and I'm like, Yeah, but I will get to that in like just one more hour of editing. So it is definitely a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Parents gotta work, but I mean it's you know, uh it's uh I think it's a fascinating thing. I think I kind of view my whole job as like other people cannot sit all day long and look at death and the question, for example, of like is my art destructive or whatever. Like other people are cannot or don't want to or won't always sit and do this. So I kind of view my job as like looking at the dark, like sitting in the dark and looking into the darkness and going as deep in it as I possibly can and trying to find something to sort of metabolize and bring back and offer up to everyone else. Like I do think about death all day long and fear and and ask myself what they mean and what anything means. And um this book was really me trying to just find some light in the dark and and try and kind of offer that up to my readers as like one potentiality. So that's and that could that could make you crazy, you know, and maybe maybe it is maybe it is, maybe I'm nuts, but um I'm I'm just so it's like I can't look away. And I've always asked myself, like, why isn't everybody just asking all the time? Like, what is this and what does it mean? But um, so yeah, that's kind of what that's kind of what I'm doing. And with headlights, it felt really clear to me.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I I think horror is a great screen that we can project our fears and our hang ups onto and kind of interact with them in a in a Safe way. I mean, reading is a very passive form of entertainment, but it still helps you exercise, or I don't know what the verb form of catharsis is, uh, but to have some catharsis with those things. Um, and this book for me specifically was extremely uh just gave me a new perspective on maybe the things I was subconsciously doing. So uh your work is appreciated. And you know, sort of the work that we try and do here is contextualize culturally and thematically and to a lesser degree symbolically, what the favor our favorite films and our favorite authors are are trying to get up to. So yeah. I'm digging the symbiosis here.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Love it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Right. Uh death we talked about a bit in this novel being a very important theme. And I think parenthood, uh, or or uh maybe inner engaging with your parents, um and and to a lesser extent, maybe some new life cropping up in the world, or or even different forms of life cropping up in the world. Uh a very there's a very hopeful take on that. Uh, there's also a very ecological take here in this book. Um, I wonder if you could talk about these themes a bit and where they came from, how they found their way into this novel. We talk a lot about balance and uh uh delicacy of our surroundings and maybe overdevelopment or gentrification to a lesser extent. But yeah, uh where did that how did that pop in?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

I think it started because I've I spent a lot of time in Denver, which is a city that is, you know, kind of famous for being the gateway to the Rockies, um, but also is a pretty sprawling urban area with a ton of new development all the time. And it's, I mean, you could point to any American city and probably say the same thing. But um I think my relationship to Denver was partly that, was partly kind of seeing this uh continued uh sprawl over the course of my lifetime thus far and the change in the landscape from it. And um, you know, kind of asking myself, like, how is it that there are more unhoused people the more houses seem to go up? And how is it that um this is like an outdoor city, but also uh it feels further and further from the outdoors in terms of like the wildlife, although there are so many people doing so many amazing things. So this is not like a criticism of Denver, it's just this was kind of me asking this about America. And um and yeah, and so that was part of it. But then this question of sort of like what is our place in this world? And uh wolf reintroduction politics have also been like really big in Colorado. They're being in California, uh, where I've been living, uh, all up and down the West Coast. This is like a huge conversation. The wolves and these keystone species that have been removed from our landscape by us. And um yeah, I'm I'm trying not to spoil, but there's so much about what is our place in relation to each other, to other uh non-human animals, to the rest of nature, to to other humans, to the dead. Like what's our place here and what should it be? And how do we create like a can a legacy? And does that have to be something through humans, or is it finding a better balance? And um I wanted this book to be a bit of a love letter to nature because Colorado is so beautiful and has such natural beauty, and Denver has such natural beauty. I really fell in love with the the plains um writing this book, and uh I'm a big nature girl. That's like really who I am most uh as a person. So this this book was all those things. And I think for me, the answer to sort of some of these big questions about mortality and everything were found in nature. And so it it just all felt very tied together to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

I think there's one line that says there are you know all these millions of species, but we have the perspective that only one of them matters, really. Just I I don't think I've considered it in that way in the past. And uh I was like, oh, that's good philosophy right there. Like I yeah, that really hit me. And I also learned that Denver has a population of around, what is it, 700,000 now, and it has recently grown.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah, something like that. So you're learning amazing.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

We're learning facts.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Learning facts. Well, I didn't realize, you know, because it is like it has this reputation as a mountain city, but it's really a plain city. It's it's so cool because it's kind of the last city um at this end of the Great Plains, which stretch across this entire landmass, pretty much, or you know, like really far. And uh for it to be the last city before these really formidable mountains also just felt like somehow symbolic to me. It just it all felt so right. It's a beautiful place.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah. And I I I know you mentioned that your books are anchored in place, and I think that's something you do very well. I I got, having never been to Colorado, got a very strong sense of the location, um, including talking about Blucifer in there, talking about art being dangerous. Uh, there there was so many um I you you mentioned this already, but Colorado has a rich legacy of ghost stories and sort of urban legends and myths, and even some mentions in this book of cryptids. And where I'm going with this is uh your Instagram is so much fun. We share a love of road trips. Uh, and I saw that you recently went to the Mothman Museum over in my neck of the woods, uh just just a couple hours southwest of me. How was that experience? I I have to ask you.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

It was so beautiful there. Like that whole area, I was kind of blown away, but it was so much fun. We drove eight hours out of our way to go see Mothman, and it was worth it. Highly recommend to anybody who hasn't done it. Yeah, the museum was awesome. The statue was everything I thought it would be. It was great. We actually, I haven't posted it yet, but we stayed in an Airbnb inside a bookstore, and um, that was very cool. And there were a lot of like West Virginia books and Mothman books there. And uh yeah, very magical, very cool. I love that you're into the road trip, stuff.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Oh yeah, I'm a giant fan, and I love that they embrace it so much in Point Pleasant. Uh, we were taking a road trip to Scare Fest weekend in Lexington, uh, which is probably about a five or six hour drive. And I said, hey, it tacks on like 30 minutes if we stop through Point Pleasant. And my wife was like, the only way I will let you go to Point Pleasant is if we're on the way somewhere. So like let's just get it over with. And that's how my toddler, my toddler, my daughter toddler, my wife, uh found out that everyone has a bum. Uh, she was like, Mothman have bum? And I was like, Yeah, so she's been talking about that since October. She's like a giant Mothman fan.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Well, I get it. And Mothman has a serious bum. So it's worth noting.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

He's running a bakery on the side with all that cake. Uh yeah, no, that's fantastic. Um, I am always here for your Instagram, and uh, we will definitely give you an opportunity to plug it at the end of this uh interview because you're always doing fun stuff. You were just having a retreat, uh, if I'm not mistaken, with Clay McLeod Chapman. Yeah, it was Vermont.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Awesome. Uh this resort, Sterling Ridge in Vermont, they partner with this bookstore, uh, Bridgeside Books, and they do reading retreats. And this, I think, was their first horror one. It was really fun. We just like hung out and read and chatted and did ghost stories, and it was beautiful. Life could be worse.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Clay is a yeah, Clay is a joy too. I'm sure that was a very high-energy uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

He's a bad he's a a very special human being, and it was so cool to hear about he kind of gave a talk on like the history of his career, and it it's a fascinating story. Everybody should like go listen to him talk about anything. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

I need to follow up with him. I think we were gonna do a theater kids in horror symposium because all of us theater kids who transitioned into the genre, um, but he he definitely matches my theater kid energy. He's a great guy. Uh, and I and I follow you, like I legitimately follow you. I don't I wasn't like stalking you for this interview. I was like, I'm just like loving your shenanigans.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Thank you. No, that makes me so happy. And I'm I'm reflecting on I haven't talked a lot about headlights yet. So I was just thinking a couple questions back about thinking about the Denver thing. And I guess I I want to clarify to say, uh, because I was talking about people moving in in America. I I think it's important in this moment to clarify that what I mean is like we have the resources on this planet for everybody to live really well and uh for everyone to have food and everyone to have housing. And yet we as a society have created a situation in which they don't. So it's not about you know anyone moving in either uh or feeling like there's not enough space or resource. We certainly have that. So it it was more about the allocation of things, in case that wasn't clear in how I was talking about it. But um yeah, this ecosystem business.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

That's how it landed for me. Okay, good, okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I just thought okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah, no, housing, housing and food security should 100% be a human right.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Um, I say this is someone who's privileged enough to have a roof and be able to provide for my family. Uh I I would gladly pay more to make sure other people had what they need. Yeah. So I I 100% echo your sentiments there.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Amazing. Okay. This is it's funny like talking about a new book because you sort of like it, it's uh, it's a world you're living in alone for such a long period of time. And then suddenly it's this externalized conversation, and you're like, do I even know like what like what I said in there or like what I what I'm saying now? It's it's uh yeah, it's 400 pages worth of my thoughts on things.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Well, I peek behind the podcast curtain. Uh, I always tend to find myself being really excited about an author and their work. And always I got Clay on the show, and I think that his young adult novel, it was the first conversation he had about it. So I'm frequently putting you all into these positions, and uh I'll say sorry, not sorry. I love I love discovering these uh myself and rediscovering them with you in a more like formalized way. So yeah, I'm just happy you're here.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

No, it's awesome. Thank you for having me, and thanks for helping, you know, uh being patient as I figure out how to talk about this book. But it it's uh yeah, this I'm I'm on the road, I'm going to all these places. I think there's there we have a lot of issues, and there's also stuff to love. And I think I try to kind of talk about it all and paint a portrait of this landscape however I can. And that's that's kind of what I've been up to. So it's it's really nice to just be at this stage and have people be able to read this third book.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Well, what's beautiful about this is that, and I think it comes directly from what you're saying, is that we have a lot of things that we could fix. And there's a lot of uh maybe societal trauma that we need to integrate. But also that one of the main drivers that I noticed with Danny is that he wants to be of service, even if he is not even if he has that bad feeling and he knows he's I think you described a bad feeling so beautifully on like page eight or something like that or six, where it's like a decision that's acting that you know is not in your best interest or something along those lines. Um, forgive me for not having the quote, but it's perfectly described what I feel like a bad feeling is where you know you're gonna be doing something that's going to be outside of your best interest. Even if you have a bad feeling, you still want to be of service to people. And I I think there's a lot of us in the world, however divided we are, who still want to be of service. And um that's a really beautiful point in this novel.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I love that. Thank you. He's like, you know, all these books are like your kids uh a little bit. I mean, I don't I know I don't have kids. I I imagine having actual kids is like I I can't know anything about that, but uh in some metaphorical sense, my my books feel like my kids, and he's like he's like the sweet, sensitive son that you just like wanna like like I just want to hug him all the time and be like it's okay, you're gonna be okay. At least mostly, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I I I don't want to spoil anything about this book. I have so many thoughts right about that. Um, the one thing I'll also say about this book before we transition into the fun questions that I ask folks at the end of the episode, is this book is a lot about being seen, which challenged me as a reader because I do think even with my wife, who I've known for 17 years. Yes, oh my god, probably longer. 2009 is when we got together. Um I wonder how willing I am to be entirely seen by another person. Uh, you approach this in some really unique ways, in some ways that I have not encountered in fiction as a whole, film or or uh novelization. And I just wonder, you know, uh if there's anything that you can share without spoiling about how that uh affects the novel itself or where that came from in your plotting of the novel. It's just it was a really it was beautiful, it was challenging for me as a reader, and um it also had some of your uh uh signature grotesque horror. Uh I'll say that too.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Thank you. I yeah, I think so much of what I've tried to do, probably with all three books that are out, is is uh talking about this being seen because I think that that's kind of uh what I think art is meant to do is to like show us the ways in which our humanity really is so shared. And um with that, I think I know what scene you're talking about. Um I think I've always been interested in this idea of like um, you know, so early, I don't this is not spoilery. There's this question in the book very early on, like first 10 pages, which is like, um, does this guy see something that is real but that other people can't see? Or does he have uh some kind of like hallucinatory um uh projections of like his trauma that he's dealing with? And and it's one of those things, or it's both, and you're we don't really know for a long time. And um I guess I asked the question if you could have some ability, if you could, you know, like Danny and the shining or whatever, is there a way to also kind of see more of even people who are alive and or for them to see you more in this question of like how much can we see, how much can we see beyond what's like physically there? And so that was fascinating to me to play with that. And um I love the idea of I I believe there's so many people on this planet. I just think there's not just one someone for everyone, I think there's a lot of someone's for everyone. I think there's so many ways in which we can really connect and uh understand each other. And for the characters in this book in particular, like they've just had such rough goes of it that I just I loved, you know, being able to sort of say to them, but look, you're not alone, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I think that was instrumental that that some of those relationships are instrumental in processing the trauma that we talk about, and and you know, a lot of this book is about that very theme. I was just focused, I was just focused on boy, would I actually be comfortable with somebody uh seeing me in all of this nonsense up there? Uh really it, yeah, you made me ask some very difficult questions, and I am forever grateful for it. I really had a blast with this one. I I can't say it enough.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Thank you. I'm so glad. I mean, we're all so flawed, right? Like we're all like we even even just like these human bodies and human brains, like nobody comes out like a perfect specimen, or maybe somebody does, but like we're all like our wiring even is different, and and everything about us is is sort of like um not perfect. And and so that's what it is to be seen, is for somebody to see how not perfect you are, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

And I think the beauty is trying to be of service even in your imperfection.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah, yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Well, speaking of asking hard questions, I'm gonna pass this back over over on to you since I you made me ask the hard questions of myself. I'm gonna ask you a couple of difficult questions. The first of which is so this is sort of a detective story, a supernatural story. Do you have a favorite supernatural detective book novel? You could throw a film in there if you like.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Probably a true detective season one. I mean, it's just so good. It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

As someone who loves philosophy and as someone who is a giant fan of The King in Yellow, uh, I was just happy that other people knew what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

It's uh it's a real work of art. I mean, it's pretty amazing. I I just watched it, um, I actually watched it for the first time. I'm always late on everything, but like a year ago, and it I was just like, wow, this is really no wonder everyone was losing their minds over this. It's really special.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

I think that they really, and I don't think no, I'm not a philosopher. My my degree is in musical theater and business. Um, but as an armchair philosopher who's read some heavier texts, I didn't feel like they pulled any punches in that season either. Um, there are some shows that were like pop philosophy. Uh, they went hard. It was very challenging.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

It was it was amazing, and I thought the characters were fascinating, and I think there were so many dynamics at play that I love to see and different types and tonally it was it was varied. I loved it. I actually haven't really watched uh other seasons, so I'm not even trying to exclude other seasons. I just haven't seen them. But um, maybe that's what I'll do. Maybe I'll do like a deep dive.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

I I've only seen season three actually. Since it's sort of anthology, I I dove back in with the hype around season three, and it's you know, it was a very different experience. Although I hear season four is somewhat related to season one, so that's on my list.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Okay. I'm kind of here for it all. You know what I mean? Like, I'm kind of like, why not? Yeah, that'll be maybe that'll be my victory lap at the end of this book coming out.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Heck yeah. That's a great, that's a great reward. Um so speaking of series, uh, I know that when we talked the last time you said your favorite film was The Shining, or favorite horror film, I should say, is The Shining, maybe a comfort film for you. Um that being said, it's been a long time since I've seen the mini-series, and I remember I VHS taped it off of like, I guess it was on like, I don't know, Fox or something, uh, and I watched the crap out of it when I was a kid. Should I revisit it in the year of our Lord 2026?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

I say a hundred percent. It it's really, but it given that you haven't read the book, if I were you, I would read the book, which the book's actually really fast. It's like, it's not like it, it's super short. Or like, I don't know, it's under 300 pages. Um but I would read the book and then I would watch the mini-series. It they're very like one really closely follows the other, obviously. And um I'm so like all I mean, I don't know, what's not to love about Stephen King ever. Like, I want more Stephen King content in every format all the freaking time. And um I actually re-watched, I didn't re-watch, I don't know why I said that. I reread um The Outsider when I was working on this book as well. And that was like a really useful, also very, very good. Uh, but I would love to watch the show. But yeah, so I think uh definitely you gotta watch it. It's awesome. It's awesome, it's very true to the book, it's very different from the Kubrick movie. I I think they're all amazing.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

That's fantastic. I just really the thing that stood out to me with the moving uh topiary, like the hedges. Like I was like remember a special feature about this. They were all very excited about the hedges walking.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Well, because it it's big in the book, it's like a big thing. It's just like, why didn't we get that in the movie?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Uh the that book is sitting on an end cap at five below. Uh, and our local mall has a five below. So tonight I'm gonna leave with that book and uh I'm gonna give it a whirl as soon as I get through this massive backlog of content that I've committed to.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

I'm sure it's some I can't even imagine. My my TBR is like endless. But the best part about that book, in my opinion, is there's like a single paragraph in which the snow comes, and that single paragraph talking about the snow is the most foreboding, terrifying, like chills on my arms paragraph in any book ever. Like, that's the one where you're like, oh shit, like this is about to go down.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

So good. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

So good.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

That's fantastic. Well, um, where can people find you online? I know I've pumped up your Instagram really hard, and I highly recommend following CJ.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Thank you. I I've got a a website revamp in the works. So yeah, for now, I would say Instagram siege the moment, C-E-E-J is my, yeah. Uh we love it.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I will never get sick of that.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I love a pun. Yeah, Siege the moment. I try to, I try to like keep everybody updated on things. Um, I'm glad it doesn't feel like overload. I feel like I'm just like constantly doing shit then and posting about it, which is which is good, which is a nice thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I'm always happy to see you pop up on my feed. Um, and I I should ask, is there anything that we should be expecting after headlights wraps up? Is there anything we should be keeping an eye out for?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Um, good question. I might have I find short stories to be like impossible for me to write. I I really struggle with them, but I do have one more coming. Um so at least one more short story. And then uh yeah, keep an eye out. There's some cool headlight stuff coming that I haven't been able to talk about that's uh that I'm really excited about. And then, you know, book four comes 2027.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

So well, I will be keeping an eye out for that short story. Uh that's something I can squeeze in before in between my massively overcommitting. Um and we'll keep an eye out for that website redesign too. That sounds like a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Oh, thank you. I'm excited about it. I and I'm so sorry. I've got um in the rental I'm in right now, someone's mowing outside. I apologize. But um, yeah, it's been so fun chatting. Like it's just nice to be back here.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Yeah, well, we'll have to have you back when you're uh when book four hits next year.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Definitely. That's my New York City book. So vibe shift.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

See, now that's a city I have been to, so I'll have like uh I'll be able to comment a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Perfect, perfect. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

CJ, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Thank you. So good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Likewise, and stay spooky, my friends.